 | Mate in 3 |
 LeafsneedSteen writes "MLSE Off Season Checklist
Sign a defenseman despite being log jammed at the position, check
Trade away draft picks or prospect for a support cast player, check
Sign a depth UFA forward, check
Yep, the more things change the more they stay the same. A typical Maple Leaf off season where management produces just enough change to spark mediocre interest in the team. Staying faithful to the script there are couple new faces but the additions of Lebda, Versteeg and Armstrong do little to realistically inspire faith that change is on the horizon.
This is disappointing because Burke disrupted this narrative last summer. The additions of a promising blue chip 1st round pick in Kadri and acquiring a legitimate top line winger in Kessel were unfamiliar actions of a Leaf GM. Though bringing in two top four blueliners in Komisarek and Beachemin were deals Leaf Nation are more accustomed too. Burke continued to flip the script as he cleared baggage during the season with in the Phaneuf and Giguere deals.
So why is Burke suddenly easing into status quo MSLE practice? Given where this team finished it is hardly the time to put things on cruise control, especially considering our lack of drafts. It is both perplexing and counter productive.
The problem with filling out the checklist for a MLSE summer is that it is a proven recipe for failure. What we've learned in the post lockout LNH is that building from the net out is a dated model. How many face lifts has the Maple Leafs blueline undergone? This insistence on building a dominant blueline is a result of the anxiety from the Quinn era where our blueline was our Achilles Heel. In favor of becoming strong up the middle or in our top six management remains neurotic haunted by its past failures which fuel a maniacal obsession of spending money on defensemen. The point worth stressing is during the Quinn era is that the Leafs were consistently competitive.
Defensemen are no longer the hardest commodity to come by. Each off season offers up a host of soon to be immovable contracts with another cast of stay at home blueliners cashing in. This is true of the Leafs' situation, what Phaneuf and Lebda have taught us is that quality defensemen are always available. Even Kaberle's sitting on the trade market emphasizes this point. No longer is it prudent to build from the blueline first as these pieces can be found.
The Leafs are currently spending 20.4 million on their top six forward (top six according to salary) and 27.7 on eight defenseman, 24.45 on their top six (again by salary). These numbers should be reversed to ice a competitive product. So a proposal from one fan moving forward is that we concentrate our efforts on building the top three in our top six to avoid finishing in the bottom six as team.
For HTR, I'm certainly not LeafyMcLeaf"
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| "Mate in 3" | Login/Create an Account | 247 comments |
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Re: Mate in 3 (Score: 1)
by leafy on Saturday, July 17
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"What we've learned in the post lockout LNH is that building from the net out is a dated model. How many face lifts has the Maple Leafs blueline undergone? This insistence on building a dominant blueline is a result of the anxiety from the Quinn era where our blueline was our Achilles Heel....Defensemen are no longer the hardest commodity to come by...." etc
Absolutely brilliant article. Finally someone who shares my thoughts.
What good is a defence when they are always under pressure because the forwards cannot control the puck while on offense in the opponent's zone?
This has been the Leafs main problem the past few years. Even with a pretty good blue line core, they often look mediocre many nights because the forwards are either not a scoring threat or cannot control the puck for more than 5 seconds. Hence the defence is constantly on its heels, and tired out.
The most valuable commodity in the NHL right now is forward star power. The Leafs have got to find a way to get at least 1 more (or probably 2 more) quality scoring forwards (preferably 1 center), otherwise we'll be hard pressed to make the playoffs again.
Remember, even Philly and Boston made the playoffs in the final weekend last year, and they have a much better team than the Leafs.
Two more quality scoring forwards for sure.
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Re: Mate in 3 (Score: 1)
by cam7777 on Saturday, July 17
(User Info | Send a Message) | How are defensemen NOT the hardest commodity to come by? Who's available right now in free agency? Let's see, Kovalchuk, Ponikarovsky, Kariya, Svatos, Stempniak, Frolov, Afinogenov, etc... Oh that's right, all the good defensemen were scooped off the market in no time flat.
I would say that abandoning this model for offense is where the real anxiety is coming in to play. Leaf fans are scared that Chicago's success means that offense is the new way to go. News flash for anyone who thinks that way - assembling a team that stacked at forward is almost impossible, and the ramifications of it are completely disastrous. Even Philly is shedding Gagne, and will likely have to lose Carter next year as well, significantly lessening the strength of their stacked forward group.
At the end of the day, Chicago and Philly still had such stacked D's that they were able to compete with minimal talent between the pipes. Rarely were the offensive players in that final making any sort of a difference. Richards and Toews began to fade as Pronger, Keith and Seabrook took center stage. Even Kane's overtime winner was one of the flukiest goals I've ever seen.
It's not like all your concerns aren't understood by Burke. Just look at the makeup of the two teams he built before the Leafs. The top line in Anaheim is Ryan Getzlaf, Corey Perry and Bobby Ryan - which is sick. And in Vancouver the Sedins man that line with an array of wingers. It's not as though Burke isn't aware that adding to the top three is ideal.
I also take issue with lumping Versteeg and Armstrong into the organizations previous ventures into free agency. These are not aging Jason Blake, Pavel Kubina types, and they aren't even the consistent 20 goal scorer types like Hagman and Stempniak. Versteeg just turned 24 years old and has a Cup on his resume. He has 30 goal potential and oozes hockey sense (the one trait Stalberg lacked for all his physical tools). Armstrong is enormously hard to play against, and among the best 3rd liners in the league. These kind of players are necessary to build a winner.
Even if Versteeg is nothing more than a Hagman, the last time we signed a Hagman we turned him into Phaneuf less than 18 months later. Moving forward, the Leafs have completed the rebuild of the back end, and also completed the rebuild of the middle two lines. The future of the team looks like this:
________ - _______ - Kessel
Kulemin - Kadri - Versteeg
_______ - Bozak - Armstrong
________ - _______ - C.Orr
It's possible that several of those bottom-six spots will be filled by the likes of Caputi, Hanson, Mitchell, Muller, Ross, or maybe Sjostrom sticks with the team. So really, in less than 2 years, Burke has only 2 blanks left to fill. Granted, they will probably be the hardest blanks to fill, but give the man a break, there was simply nothing in free agency to work with this year, and plenty of salary and cap issues left to fix from the previous regime.
Patience Leaf fans, Burke has the team going in the right direction. |
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Re: Mate in 3 (Score: 1)
by Kev_Leafs on Saturday, July 17
(User Info | Send a Message) | Are you just upset that Burke didn't chase down Kovalchuk with reckless abandon?
Ignoring last year's off-season (Komisarek, Beauchemin, Kessel, Gustavsson, Bozak, Hanson, etc...)
This year: Giguerre trade got rid of Blake - great for the 2011/12 season cap wise, and current goaltending. Phaneuf for spare parts - great deal.
This off-season he's added Versteeg - a twenty-goal scorer with winning pedigree. Armstrong - a twenty-goal scorer and a tough complimentary winger to a weak forward group. Rynnas, Scrivens, Mueller, Irwin as free agent signings for depth. And Lebda - a puck-moving defensemen to replace the one he intends on trading for a top-six forward (hopefully another 20 goal scorer). So, by the end of the off-season he (might) have brought in three twenty-goal scorers while costing us Kaberle, Stalberg, and prospects.
To point - (assuming Kaberle is traded) for next season he brought in three guys good for 50-70 goals for roughly 9 million dollars in salary. Kovalchuk is good for 40-50 goals and costs 8.5 million.
It's not only the superstars that can win championships (PIT - yes, but SJ, WSH - no), it's depth at forward, depth in defense, and good goaltending (or at least modest). He's building depth at these positions for an opportunity to win the cup in 2012-13-14.
Again, the Leafs are not winning the Cup in 2010-11, so there's no need to have THE team that will carry us there RIGHT NOW. It's about adding the necessary pieces at the right times. And I think he's doing that (assuming Kaberle is traded).
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Re: Mate in 3 (Score: 1)
by leafy on Saturday, July 17
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This is a point I've made many times here.
Consider the Leafs defence in the 2001-2002 season, the year after Danny Markov was traded and Dmitri Yuskevich went down with a blood clot:
Kaberle-McCabe
Aki Berg-Karel Pilar
Jyrki Lumme-Cory Cross
Anders Eriksson
After Kaberle and McCabe, nothing spectacular, and probably downright mediocre, agreed?
We this team has 100 points (without shootouts) and went to the Final 4!!!
WHY? Because the Leafs had friggin good forwards. Other teams were so scared shitless from the Leaf attack, they were constantly on their heels.
So in short, Leafsneedsteen makes a perfectly valid point about defence being over emphasized in my opinion.
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Re: Mate in 3 (Score: 1)
by Kyleton on Saturday, July 17
(User Info | Send a Message) | What I don't think you realize is that the best teams have all the pieces to the puzzle not just a good top 3. Not too mention that its not easy to just grab top 3 talent, so you gotta work with what can.
Every team in the league from the Maple Leafs to the sharks, pens, flyers etc spend money on quality depth players. Versteeg and Armstrong are strong quality guys, and Versteeg has potential to be a strong top 6 guy.
The majority of the top teams also have great defenses also. Chicago, Philly, San Jose.
Also with your numbers break down. You will see a swing when Kaberle is moved eventually to balance out.
Finally, this "new era" of NHL is still far to early to tell what the winning team make up is. One could also make the argument that now you have to suck for a decade get 5 top 5 picks somewhere close together in that decade and hope that they win a cup while a couple are on entry level salaries. Just because we've seen Pittsburgh and Chicago win with the forwards they have does not mean that is the new way to win. They both had great defense and a roster of quality depth guys that complimented the coaches system and each other.
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Re: Mate in 3 (Score: 1)
by reinjosh on Saturday, July 17
(User Info | Send a Message) | "This insistence on building a dominant blueline is a result of the anxiety from the Quinn era where our blueline was our Achilles Heel. In favor of becoming strong up the middle or in our top six management remains neurotic haunted by its past failures which fuel a maniacal obsession of spending money on defensemen."
Did you even watch the Cup Final? Two things that both teams had that were invaluable to them being there?
A) Depth at all positions.
B) Solid Defense
So whats the lesson here? Well building from the backend out is still viable and it could be easily argued that its still a common way to build teams. Both the Cup winning team and the runner up both realized this. Philly had arguably the deepest and most talented top 4 in hockey last year and Chicago's was also a site of beauty. Both had multiple top 2 defenders (3 or more) and they both proved that defense is still invaluable to a teams success and worth that "maniacal money" your moronically spout is worthless. Both teams spent upwards 20 million each and both benefited greatly from it.
Montreal also proved that goaltenders and defense are still viable ways to win. Halak and the stifling defense single handily brought the team to the Eastern final. Now your going to say "what about San Jose, they were there too!" Yeah and they lost because they didn't have the depth or the defensive a*****en to stop a team like Chicago. Their top 6 was worthless in the end.
Both teams also had depth, without which neither would be their. Building depth takes time and Burke is doing that both on the Leafs and in the minors and lower. He is doing it the proper way so that the Leafs don't have to suffer 5 years of perpetual stupidity again.
"No longer is it prudent to build from the blueline first as these pieces can be found."
This is probably the stupidest comment you made in this article. Defensive defenseman getting 4 plus million dollars a year proves how valuable they are. All the top defenseman being snatched up within hours of the market being open proves how valuable they are. Your "proof" of these pieces being available is laughable. The defensive guys hit the market and the offensive guys don't? Looking at one year is hardly proof of that. Kaberle not being traded yet? Thats proof? How?
You then claim Phaneuf being available is further proof of this thought? What about Heatley, Kovy and Kessel and to a lesser extent Versteeg being traded. Plus Gagne, Savard, Sharp, Semin all being rumored to be move. Phaneuf and Ballard were the last big name defense guys traded and who is available now? Bieksa and Kabere? hardly a "large market".
What is it with Leaf fans obsessive need to have a winning team at right this instant. We suffered 5 years of terrible team management. Its going to take a while to fix. Its commendable that Burke has done such a quick job already but now we have to wait while the core he is assembling grows and develops like other teams have. We just had the luxury and luck of grabbing to top 5 picks on the trade market while other teams had to wait for their own picks to develop.
Burke has a top 6 that could develop into one with one 40 goal scorer (Kessel), an 80 point center (Kadri), a 65 point two way center (Bozak), a 25 goal two way winger (Kulemin) and a 30 goal winger. thats not to damn shabby. We just have to wait. Rome took time to be built. Better to suffer one more season with a developing team than force it to fast, take on stupid salary and suffer the mistakes in the near future.
Burke may like the "sped-up" rebuild but in the end its still a rebuild and there is still waiting involved. Realistically we can be a competing team next year, which would make the rebuild done after 3 years and one of those years we would be a playoff fighting team (this year). Thats damn better than losing for 4 or 5 years straight and then going with a developing yea
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Re: Mate in 3 (Score: 1)
by leafstime on Saturday, July 17
(User Info | Send a Message) | Grabovski and a fourth pick for Savard.
Mike Brown and fifth pick for Gagne.
Kaberle, Zigomanis and a third for Neal and a fourth.
Beauchemin for Clowe.
Bury Finger in the minors.
Problem solved. Leafs are cup contenders next spring.
Burke make these moves tonight.
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Re: Mate in 3 (Score: 1)
by mojo19 on Saturday, July 17
(User Info | Send a Message) | Well i'll start off by saying that this was an interesting article and is very valid. We need some forwards, that's the bottom line.
That being said, I don't agree that there is a cut and dry formula on how to build a winner. I remember after the Ducks won in '07 EVERYONE just talked about toughness, and how the Burke's team lead the league in fighting majors, and were so gritty and tough, and that's what you need to win. The following year in '08, the opposite, Red Wings finished dead last in fighting majors and won the cup with a completely different roster.
But what did both those teams have in common? Stud blueliners, featuring the likes of Pronger, Niedermayer, Beauchemin, Lidstrom, Rafalski, Kronwall, and Brad Stuart. So I have no problem with bringing in guys like Komisarek, Beauchemin, and Phaneuf, we just need to upgrade our forwards to compliment these guys. |
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Re: Mate in 3 (Score: 1)
by Kramer on Sunday, July 18
(User Info | Send a Message) | Everybody's forgetting the most important thing. MLSE borrowed millions from the mafia to payoff creditors when the Stavro shares went for sale. The Teacher's Pension owes millions to loan sharks. Can you come up with $40M just like that? Well you can if you run a money laundering scam but even that takes a few years. To pay back the loan, they had to cut corners. The same thing happened to Toyota and now they're making lemons. The mob wants their money. So now they can't buy water to make ice let alone buy players.
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Re: Mate in 3 (Score: 1)
by mojo19 on Sunday, July 18
(User Info | Send a Message) | I would sign 40 year old Billy Guerin to a 1 year contract, dump Beauchemin, Finger, and Grabovski and go with young guys. We'd have loads of cap space to make trades as the season goes along and I'd give a chacne to young guys at camp to get a couple roster spots
Versteeg - Bozak - Kessel
Guerin - Kadri - Kulemin
Sjostrom - Mueller - Armstrong
Brown - Hanson - Orr
Caputi - Mitchell
Now even with solid defense, I don't think this group is good enough to necessarily get us into the playoffs, but I wouldn't mind going into the year with these guys and making additions as we go along. Face it, right now the market is DRY
If someone wanted to make a salary dump i'd do it, say Beauchemin for Ribeiro? I'd be down but if a deal like that isn't out there then i'd do something like this |
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Re: Mate in 3 (Score: 1)
by Mapleleaves (Mapleleaves@faithintheleaf.net) on Sunday, July 18
(User Info | Send a Message) | | i probably sound dumb but i never saw anything about mueller coming to the leafsbut i see him in th linups when poeple talk about it.. im guessing it the mueller for DEL but i was wondering if he was signed or not. |
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Re: Mate in 3 (Score: 1)
by Bure96 on Sunday, July 18
(User Info | Send a Message) | You gotta have a good defense.
Vancouver would have won the Stanley Cup this year with a better defense. Bieksa was very shaky, Ehrhoff was inconsistent, Mitchell was hurt, Alberts absolutely killed us when he was on the ice. They still took Chicago to 6 games though. If they had Keith Ballard and Dan Hamhuis instead of Bieksa and Alberts that series they would have won, and probably won a Stanley Cup. Simple as that.
They had SIX twenty five goal scorers + guys like Grabner, and Demitra who could have stepped up any time and played a top 6 role. Even with two of the leagues top 5 best forwards they still couldn't win without defense. And don't blame it on Luongo. He wasn't the reason they lost.
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Re: Mate in 3 (Score: 1)
by nordiques100 on Sunday, July 18
(User Info | Send a Message) | I for one feel Burke has done a fine job here.
The off-season has been a whole 4 weeks and its already, what have you done for me lately.
i think that sentiment is way off base.
fact is, the 3 moves made during the season: Kessel, Phaneuf, Giguere, kind of already were the ground breaking, foundation shaking moves that epitomize Burke the GM.
I think Leaf nation maybe has become too spoiled by these moves, which have happened over just 10 months and expect a constant shuffling of players in and out and big names...all of them it seems, to land in toronto.
And Burke still has 1 more bargaining chip to play: Tomas Kaberle.
and with a month left to try and move him, inevitably something will go down, otherwise a good player stays.
So to me the off season isnt over.
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Re: Mate in 3 (Score: 1)
by nordiques100 on Sunday, July 18
(User Info | Send a Message) | Oh, and i think the big picture is being missed here by some.
The Leafs have one of the league's youngest teams. They have 4 players in their organization who are 30 or older. And two of them: Kaberle and Finger are likely goners.
Beauchemin and Giguere are all that is left in the 30 and over category. That kind of turnover is significant and noteworthy. To go from the Muskoka 5 and stiffs like Blake, Toskala and other older vets to what they have now, kudos go to Burke and to what he's done.
When you see the Forwards in JFJ's last season as a Leaf and see Stajan, Wellwood, Steen and Tlusty as the 25 and under crew with Kulemin, Jeremy Williams, Earl and Boyce as the best of the rest and compare it to Kessel, Kulemin, Bozak, Hanson, Versteeg, Kadri, Sweatt, D'amigo, Caputi, Irwin, Ross, Mitchell, Meuller, Ryan, the improvement is absolutely astonishing.
And from this, one can make an assumption that Burke has a plan. Its the first of its kind here in these parts we've seen in like forever.
He came in and he wanted to build a top front office. He did with Nonis, Loiselle and Poulin as aids and of course Nieuwendyk before.
he wanted more truculence and belligerence. He added Komisarek, Brown, Orr, Armstrong, Phaneuf, Beauchemin to help in this regard. And he probably isnt done here.
he wanted to get younger and of course he's done so.
As for this off-season, he wanted to add help to the top 9. he's done so with Armstrong and Versteeg.
Top flight centres do not grow on trees. But, Kadri, Bozak, Grabovski, Mitchell, Hanson, Irwin all have some potential. Its not horribly lost here. Patience is needed.
And there is one thing that doesnt change in Leaf nation: a lack of patience. You are now expecting Burke to turn things around this second. Well it's a process.
I believe losing out on a top 5 pick means the team must be in win now. But like i have outlined, look how young the team has gotten?
The team didnt move the high picks and prospects for golden oldies like Leetch, Nolan, he did it for under 25 talents.
The Leafs substituted draft picks with signing Bozak, Hanson, Gustavsson, Rynnas, Mueller, Scrivens, Slaney, Gysbers, Irwin. So it wasnt like Burke gave up the picks and just left the cupboard barren. Again, he had a plan.
I dont know how its suddenly where he's like JFJ or any other of hte leafs crap GMs of yesteryear. I don't see that at all.
Going after undraft free agents in a big way is new to the leafs.
Going after under 25 stars rather than over 35 former stars born in Ontario is new.
Innovative trades, like moving Blake, Toskala, well that's new to toronto to instead of having to eat contracts via buyouts.
Having a plan, well that's new
Getting younger altogether, new as well.
Having a front office team. well that helps. especially if they're on the same page.
All of this article I believe goes back to your insistence the Leafs get Kovalchuk.
At his demands, the answer is easy: No.
Burke feels he can do better in that it'd be more cap friendly and more practical and sensible.
i trust Burke to accomplish that. The off-season has a long ways to go so wait until Aug 15th and see how things play out.
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Re: Mate in 3 (Score: 1)
by leafy on Sunday, July 18
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Interesting that Detroit wants Modano. Do they think at age 40 he's better than Frolov, Afinogenov, Poni, and Stempniak?
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Re: Mate in 3 (Score: 1)
by nordiques100 on Sunday, July 18
(User Info | Send a Message) | 1. on the lebda signing.
by all accounts finger will be gone, kaberle a strong chance too. lebda adds depth. before the signing the leafs had 7 D, if you subtract 2, you'd only have 5. last everyone checked, teams played with 6 D.
its not a cap busting signing. he is a depth player signed for 2 years and a player who adds quickness and some cup experience.
its a signing where Burke just went ahead to do it now in case this player wasnt going to be available should he later had found homes for Kaberle/finger.
2. On Versteeg
Versteeg is a top 6 forward. He did spend much of his rookie season with Kane and/or Toews. He did produce in year 2 without playing regularly with them. by all accounts everyone has said Versteeg has lots of potential, is a legit top 6 forward. He was a support player but played a huge role on Chicago with his versatility, strong two-way play and smarts.
Versteeg is 24. he is in fact younger than the centrepiece going Chicago's way in Stalberg. Sweatt is a good prospect who easily would overcome the loss of didomenico or Paradis. Versteeg can help the team now, but still is young enough to help them for years to come.
you've argued they have not addressed the forward problems. well Versteeg addresses some of it.
3. on Armstrong
Armstrong addresses many needs in terms of grit, help on the PK, toughness, a player who adds scoring depth on the bottom 6, adds some leadership, helps keep opponents honest.
4. on the more things change, the more they stay the same and on how the moves do little to inspire faith that change is on the horizon.
a) moves are hard to make in the cap world. its not just your own team but the rest of the league. trades are not easily during free agency period. they're trying after the big fish or a big bargain without moving assets. its later on pre-camp where trades usually happen as the dust has settled and the cap space and needs thing is more clear.
b) we have to use as argument what has occurred pre-off-season. you've argued that you're only talking of this off-season and are now complaining change isnt happening.
well considering bozak, versteeg, armstrong, kadri, kessel, phaneuf, beauchemin, gustavsson, komisarek, lebda, giguere, caputi, gunnarsson orr, irwin, sjostrom all did not play for the leafs prior to last season, you have to say change has happened. several of these guys werent even on the team that started with the leafs last year. so lots of change has happened. does more need to? perhaps gaining some chemistry and cohesion is why a complete roster makeover hasnt happened so far this off-season. but again, the off-season isnt over.
c) the leafs have a bargaining chip in Kaberle. yes its gone on for a while, but the evidence is as strong as ever that he'll be moved. you have to wait.
you've stressed you do not like waiting, but complained the leafs moved prospects...who are years away...for players who are equally as young i might add and would help immediately. where's the patience in this regard?
4. on last summer.
the kessel deal happened in sept. training camp was going on but i guess it was b4 the season starting so i guess that's considered off-season? to me, the off-season is over when camp starts. but, if you wish to include kessel trade in your argument as groundbreaking, well, i guess burke has 2 and a half months to do something. so again, it may be too early to argue that what BB has done is unsatisfying.
5. on getting komisarek, beauchemin, phaneuf, giguere.
fergie brought in only kubina and leetch as top 4 guys.
quinn made the mccabe trade.
only kubina was a UFA.
if you wish to include Lumme, Khavanov and Klee among others as top D picked up, well you can, but they were not.
other than that, the recent GMs havent really gone out and found top 4 D, especially not at the same time.
and during the season he did snag phaneuf, giguere.
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Re: Mate in 3 (Score: 1)
by LeafsneedSteen on Sunday, July 18
(User Info | Send a Message) | Let's consider the top 8 teams in the league...
Washington, built through the draft (probably not an option for Toronto long term) top heavy with the likes of Ovechkin, Semin and Backstrom. Only spending big money on a great defensemen in Green, did not begin they're rebuild with high priced depth bluliners.
New Jersey, Zajac, Paraise, Kovalchuk, Arnott, Elias and despite being a good defensive team they do it with relative no names and play by committee. Let Martin walk and brought in Volchenkov (the jury is out on this deal).
Buffalo, Vanek, Pomminville, Roy, Stafford and they never spend money on high priced blueliners in the UFA market.
Pittsburg, Crosby, Staal, Malkin, won a cup without a cheap blueline and high priced forwards, just now bringing high priced blueline UFAs a luxury they can afford given the core they built first.
San Jose, perhaps the best model for the Leafs given they didn't draft their best players. Thorton, Heatly, Palavaski and Marleau. Boyle and Blake where significant edititions brought in after SJ had established themselves as a competitive team.
Chicago is built on the foundation of Toews, Kane and Keith (maybe the best blueliner in the league, exception talent distinguishes him from being considered overpaid). They do have a sick blueline but would love to be able to shed 7 million in Campbell, personally I think matching the SJ's offer sheet was a mistake and they should have taken the picks IMO.
Vancouver, built first through Sedins, Kesler and Luongo, brought in Ballard and Hamhius as finishing pieces.
Detroit, spends a lot of money on the back end however, the only pure stay at home defensemen they spent significant money on is Stuart and he was an ancillary piece.
Anyone notice a trend, show the good team that built through a log jam of stay at home defensemen. That model is better suited for 1999 than the post lockout LNH.
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Re: Mate in 3 (Score: 1)
by DannyLeafs (dude@dudemail.com) on Sunday, July 18
(User Info | Send a Message) | I am going to do something really taboo for this site, and that's make a non-leaf post on a Leaf comment board. I know it's usually the other way around, but after looking at Philly's roster there is something I just don't get.
Why isn't Jeff Carter being rumored to move?
There are some small rumblings, but it's odd that his name came up so much more often in past off seasons when it didn't make sense to move him then it has this off season when it makes the most sense to move him.
If Philly really needs to dump salary, why not move Carter. I would make the argument that they have a better on ice team after moving Carter then Gagne. This is mainly because this team is deep down the middle, and guys like Briere and Giroux play better when they have had the opportunity to play center. Briere has been world's better in games where he was given the opportunity to play center.
Next I think Gagne, when healthy is a more effective player than Carter. He was better in the playoffs, and he has been Philly's leading goal scorer since the lock out. He would probably take a pay cut to stay with the team beyond next season, so he might make more sense long term. Since Carter doesn't have an NTC and is only 25 he would probably net a very good return from another team, so it just makes sense to move him.
Finally, even if Philly can move Gagne instead, they are going to be in some cap trouble next year. They currently have 45 million sunk into 14 roster players for the year after next. They also have to sign Giroux and Carter as well as fill out the roster. If Giroux has the break out year many are expecting, it could get very tight very fast. If Carter has an off year, or even just a year like this one past, Philly will be in a tight spot.
If Carter has an off year, Philly has to offer him a minimum of 5.5 million by July 1 in order to retain his rights, otherwise he walks away for nothing. If he has a good year, it could cost even more. If he has an ok year, they offer him 5.5, he snaps it up, and they are against the cap with no easy solutions.
I am not saying that Carter would be a cap albatross, but it is quite likely that they would get a lower return next year if they decide they have to move him then they would right now when they don't.
So, right now I just think it makes sense to move him. It wouldn't really hurt the team for this coming season, it would make their cap more manageable afterward, and it is likely the option that would yield the biggest return.
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Re: Mate in 3 (Score: 1)
by LeafsneedSteen on Sunday, July 18
(User Info | Send a Message) | I'm being critical of Burke's (and MSLE's approach since the lockout, though Burke is cleary outshining his predecessor) attitude of building from the blueline first.
Burke has snubbed the idea of getting both Heatley (I know he probably wouldn't have waived for Toronto), Gaborik and Kovalchuk on principle. My concern is less about whether these players had interest in Toronto than Burke having no interest in them.
Now consider forwards that had interest in Toronto Cammalleri could have easily been a Leaf (personally I'm not a fan but it is another example of overlooking a quality forward) and Burke seems to have zero interest in Marc Savard despite the possibility that he could come relatively cheap.
I find these instances concerning. He doesn't seem to be willing to spend 6 + on any forward. These aren't exactly isolated instances.
Though to his credit he did want to make a run at the Sedins. That would have been better than Komisarek/Beachemin.
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Re: Mate in 3 (Score: 1)
by LeafsneedSteen on Sunday, July 18
(User Info | Send a Message) | As for the prototypical Burke model, the Ducks that were Stanley Cup champions. Burke really only had big money tied up in future HoF defensemen in Pronger and Niedermayer. Beachemin was still cheap and that blueline was top heavy with a strong top three and lack luster bottom three. Anahiem also let Beachemin walk the moment he priced himself out of the market.
This isn't really a ringing endorsement for the Leafs speding at least 3 + on each of their six highest paid defensemen.
*Before I get flamed for including Finger, I'll stress that this issue runs deeper than Burke, Fletcher and JFJ were devotees to the fetish of high priced depth blueliners. This isn't an assualt of Burke who clearly knew better in Anahiem. I criticizing a pattern in the Leafs in the Leafs post lockout history, one that Burke and Nonis (who was also afflicted in Vancouver) aren't immuned too.
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Re: Mate in 3 (Score: 1)
by JustYouW8 on Sunday, July 18
(User Info | Send a Message) | I believe Toronto is in the same position they were in right before Burke was hired.. a mediocre team fighting for the playoffs, but not a basement crawler. However, with that being said, i believe the Leafs have a much brighter future then they have had in the past, and a GM which is willing to make some big changes if necessary.
They will not be a threat to win a Stanley Cup this year, but as the years goes on they will only become more competitive. Winning a Stanly Cup is no sure thing no matter how good of a team (ie. San Jose Sharks), but if you're competitive you have a good chance, and I believe Burke will be able to get the Leafs as good of a chance as they've had in a long time in the next few years.
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Re: Mate in 3 (Score: 1)
by nordiques100 on Sunday, July 18
(User Info | Send a Message) | ok keeping it super really simple for the writer.
there is 81 days left from today, July 18th 2010 to the start of the season on October 7th.
the off-season is NOT OVER.
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Re: Mate in 3 (Score: 1)
by TheLeafNation91 on Sunday, July 18
(User Info | Send a Message) | You guys are DELUSIONAL...Officially
KOVALCHUK...All you guys crying that Burke did not get into the sweepstakes. Do you really want this guy on your team? A guy who is NOT a team player, a guy who has no winning attitude, and a guy who really besides points, has done nothing and has a diva persona to him...Wow, I wonder why Burke diidn't sign him.
GABORIK...Last time I checked, when the Rangers signed him many said it could backfire. Before last season, he only played over 48 games in 1 over the las theree season...Yeah, Burke should throw 7.5 million because Leaf fans know more then an accomplished NHL GM
CAMMALLERI...Was never an option, sorr, and even if he did, Burke wouldn't of thrown 6-million to a player who has a career year at over 80 points. Yeah, so he had a good playoffs...Last time I checked, his season wasn't that spectacular...
SAVARD...Boston wants more then Toronto is willing to offer...That's a god sent for us. Look, Savard would be nice but he has two...MAYBE three good years in him before he's gonna be old with a 4.7 million cap him...Last time I checked, we wont be competitive for another two to three years so whats the point of Savard??? Dead Weight???
You guys are moaning why Toronto didn't go after these guys...Look at the facts. These are players that Burke wouldn't necessarily want in Toronto, and throwing over 6-million at a player you don't really want would seriously create the old Leafs. Impulsive decisions by GMs because of you whiney fans...Get over and stop crying. I'm happy that Burke is GM, he doesn't take your bull shit
P.S. Just to wake your brains up from slumber...Do you really think if Rick Nash, like we said last year, was available, don't you think Burke would move heaven and earth to get him...Just think about it??? |
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Re: Mate in 3 (Score: 1)
by Kramer on Sunday, July 18
(User Info | Send a Message) | The Leafs need to make a big trade.
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Re: Mate in 3 (Score: 1)
by DannyLeafs (dude@dudemail.com) on Monday, July 19
(User Info | Send a Message) | Since just about everyone has weighed in on this article I guess I might as well.
First off, I think your being a little harsh in your criticisms of not only Burke, but the players he has added. With Versteeg we are talking about a skilled player with back to back 20 goal seasons who is still younger then the centerpiece of the package we traded away. Versteeg is a much more talented player then he gets credit for. I wouldn't be shocked if he put up close to 30 goals and 60 points next season.
Second, the Lebda signing should be a sign that Burke is doing what you think he should. He is signing a no-name lesser light defensmen so he can move out one of the higher priced guys in order to fill a forward position.
Third, I think your analysis of the best teams in the league has really short changed their defense cores. Every great team has at least one great defensemen. Burke saw this need and despite Kaberle being a very good defensemen, he is not a guy that is likely to garner much consideration for a Norris Trophy. Burke went out and added a guy who has the potential to be one of the very best defensemen of this era. Yes, I know Dion has his flaws, but his abilities are that impressive. He is arguably one of the toughest defenders in the league to get around (when he is in position that is), and he has the ability to add 20 goals and 50 to 60 points to this if he can just put everything together. Dion really has all the tools that made Scott Stevens great, it's just a matter of whether or not he is willing to work on his mental game so that he can take full advantage of these tools.
The only other expensive defensemen Burke added were Komisarek, a stay at home shut down defensemen, which is also a key part of every great team, and Beachemin, who like I have said before, wasn't brought in to be part of the long term plan, just someone that could play a top four role just in case Luke Schenn needed more time to develop into a reliable top 4 guy.
Once Finger and Kaberle are no longer part of the Leaf's defense core, they will have exactly what you have asked for a defense core that costs under 20 million dollars that has a little bit of everything.
As for your want of big name forwards, the fact is, they simply aren't there to be had right now.
Here are the forwards that have been available.
Gaborik- too much injury risk for a long term big money contract.
Camelleri - he didn't want to come to Toronto
Savard- who knows what will happen here, but right now it isn't worth the risk if we need to give up anything substantial.
Kovalchuk- likely going to price himself out of any possible deal that could be afforded. Burke would look like a fool if he had spent the last 3 weeks trying to land him and failed.
Who else is there really. It's just been a bad 12 months or so for obtaining scoring help, and making rash decisions to add players that won't help in the long run isn't the right move, even if people have become impatient.
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Re: Mate in 3 (Score: 1)
by Toronto_side_bully22 on Monday, July 19
(User Info | Send a Message) | Devils just signed Kovy.
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Re: Mate in 3 (Score: 1)
by leafy on Monday, July 19
(User Info | Send a Message) |
Kovalchuk signing with New Jersey could work out best for L.A.
Jersey is not financially tied up to one player for many years. I read one report that it's a 17 year deal. The details are not confirmed though, as of 12:55.
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Re: Mate in 3 (Score: 1)
by leafy on Monday, July 19
(User Info | Send a Message) |
Word is LA is now targeting Sharp and Gagne.
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